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Who really said it

The Pope! How many divisions has he got?

Attributed to Joseph Stalin 1878–1953 · Soviet leader
Attributed In copyright

This exact wording first appears in Winston Churchill’s The Gathering Storm (1948). Churchill says Stalin said it to French foreign minister Pierre Laval in Moscow in 1935. Churchill heard the story from someone else and was not present, and no record by Stalin himself or by Laval has been found that contains these words.

Last verified 2 Nov 2026 · how we verify · spot an error?

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Unconfirmed quote & credit

“The Pope! How many divisions has he got?” attributed to Joseph Stalin (to Pierre Laval, Moscow, 1935), as reported by Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm (1948)

Can you use it?

Still under copyright (rights held by The Estate of Winston S. Churchill; publishers Cassell (UK) and Houghton Mifflin (US)). A short, credited quote is generally fine for talks, teaching, and internal decks; for commercial, published, or large-scale reuse, get permission.

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In context

Evoking the world of Joseph Stalin — General Secretary of the Soviet Communist Party, 1922–1952. Theme: "The Pope! How many divisions has he got?". Atmospheric and restrained, cinematic directional light, a muted period-appropriate palette, fine grain and texture. Compose with generous empty space for the quote and a small credit line. No lettering in the image itself.

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Provenance

Where the words actually appear

Work
The Second World War, Vol. I: The Gathering Storm
Author
Winston S. Churchill (reporting, not a witness)
First published
1948 (London: Cassell; US edition also 1948)
Location
Ch. VIII, “Challenge and Response, 1935”; p. 121 in the Cassell 3rd edition (1950)

Laval said: “Can’t you do something to encourage religion and the Catholics in Russia? It would help me so much with the Pope.” “Oho!” said Stalin. “The Pope! How many divisions has he got?” Laval’s answer was not reported to me; but he might certainly have mentioned a number of legions not always visible on parade. Churchill, 1948

Churchill introduces the exchange as “a fragment not hitherto published” of Laval’s talks in Moscow. This text was checked against the Cassell third edition (1950) scanned by the Digital Library of India, which is the page number given above. The 1948 first editions may be paginated differently.

The Gathering Storm (Cassell) on the Internet Archive

How the attribution was traced

  • Wikiquote lists the line under Stalin. It says he said it sarcastically to Pierre Laval in 1935 and cites The Second World War (1948) by Winston Churchill, vol. 1, ch. 8 — Wikiquote: Joseph Stalin ↗
  • The Cassell edition of The Gathering Storm contains the exact exchange: Laval asks about encouraging Catholics in Russia, and Stalin answers “The Pope! How many divisions has he got?” — Internet Archive scan ↗
  • Word Histories found newspaper versions from before Churchill’s book, starting with a Time report of 27 December 1943 set at Tehran. Several papers in 1944–45 called the story apocryphal — Word Histories ↗
In copyright

These words exist only in Churchill’s English-language The Gathering Storm, first published in 1948. A 1948 work by an identifiable author is treated as in copyright in the US, so the short excerpt here is quoted for commentary. No Russian-language original of Stalin’s remark has been documented.

Rights status is our research, not legal advice — and copyright varies by country and edition. For commercial or published use, confirm with the rightsholder. See terms.

Fact-check

Three other settings, all shakier

Before Churchill’s memoir came out, the jibe was already going around with different settings and different people raising the Pope.

Stalin, answering Churchill or Roosevelt Called apocryphal at the time

Time (27 December 1943) passed on a version attributed to Jan Smuts in which Churchill suggested involving the Pope, and Stalin asked “How many divisions has he?” Columnists in 1944 and 1945 called the story “Legend rather than Fact” and “undoubtedly apocryphal” — Word Histories ↗

Stalin at the Big Three conference Denied by a participant

Newspapers in 1945–46 set the remark at Yalta. James F. Byrnes, who was at Yalta, wrote that “The Marshal did not make the statement at Yalta” — Word Histories ↗

Stalin addressing Churchill, as Truman told it

In 1948 Harry Truman set it at Potsdam, with Stalin asking Churchill how many divisions he said the Pope had. That differs from Churchill’s own account, published the same year — Word Histories ↗

The detailed source for the familiar wording is Churchill’s The Gathering Storm (1948), which sets it in Moscow in 1935 with Pierre Laval. Churchill had the story from someone else (“Laval’s answer was not reported to me”), so it is a credible attribution but not a verified one — Internet Archive scan ↗

Context

Why the line stuck

In Churchill’s telling, Stalin and Molotov had just been pressing Laval on hard military numbers: how many French divisions there would be and how long men would serve. Laval then asked whether something could be done for Catholics in Russia to help him with the Pope. Stalin’s reply turns the conversation’s own unit of measure against the Vatican. That is a big part of why the line became shorthand for the gap between moral authority and military force.

Churchill added his own reply on Laval’s behalf, saying Laval “might certainly have mentioned a number of legions not always visible on parade.” Later retellings kept adding comebacks. One of them, reported in 1958, is a supposed reply from Pius XII that Stalin would meet his divisions in heaven.

“The Pope! How many divisions has he got?”

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Dig deeper

Trusted places to keep pulling the thread — primary archives, fact-checks, and scholarship. We show how we used each one before you leave.

Wikiquote: Joseph Stalinen.wikiquote.org

Lists the line with Churchill’s The Second World War (1948), vol. 1, ch. 8 as the source
The Gathering Storm (Cassell edition scan)archive.org

Full scan of Churchill’s vol. I; the Laval exchange is in ch. VIII
History of ‘How many divisions has the Pope?’wordhistories.net

Newspaper trail of the Tehran, Yalta and Potsdam versions, 1943–1958
The Second World War (book series)en.wikipedia.org

Publication history of Churchill’s six volumes; vol. 1 appeared in 1948
Joseph Stalinen.wikipedia.org

Biography, life dates and offices

The author

About Joseph Stalin

Joseph Stalin

1878–1953 · General Secretary of the Soviet Communist Party, 1922–1952

Joseph Stalin led the Soviet Union from the 1920s until he died in March 1953. He was General Secretary of the Communist Party from 1922 and also head of government from 1941. His reputation as a cold realist about power made him an obvious person to hang a line like this on. The line has followed him for decades, even though the only detailed account of it comes from a third party.

For writers & researchers

Cite this

Earliest detailed account

Winston S. Churchill, The Second World War, vol. 1, The Gathering Storm (London: Cassell, 1948), ch. 8, “Challenge and Response, 1935”; p. 121 in the Cassell 3rd ed. (1950). Reported speech attributed to Joseph Stalin, Moscow, 1935.

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Quotle.info. “Who really said ‘The Pope! How many divisions has he got?’?” Last verified 2 Nov 2026. https://quotle.info/who-said/the-pope-how-many-divisions-has-he-got/

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